Thoughts
from the
Conversations
With Swami
Nirgunananda
Collected by Claire Landais
The
following booklet consists of conversations between Swami Nirgunananda and
Claire Landais. Claire, from Paris, came to Dhaulchina, Ma Anandamayi’s
hermitage in the Kumaon Himalayas above Almora at an altitude of 7000 feet, in
April 2002 and stayed a full month here. During her long discussions with
Swamiji she took down notes in French.
She then
sent it to me in
Dhaulchina for personal revision by Swamiji who does
not know French. I translated her notes into English.
As Claire noted down only what Swamiji said
without mentioning the context at some points sequences were lost. However,
Swami Nirgunananda tried to recollect those contexts and gave the present shape
to the exchanges he had with Claire.
I hope that
this booklet will be useful for English speaking devotees of Ma, be they in
Europe, America or India itself. They can have access to this text through the
paper version or Ma’s website on Internet.
Jacques
Vigne
Dhaulchina
Hermitage
4-1- 2003
Q. Were you entrusted with any specific duties while
with Ma?
A. From the
very first day of my stay with Ma I was entrusted with writing replies to
letters from her devotees. There were thousands of letters and without any
exception all those letters contained questions relating to spiritual and
worldly matters. I had to read the letters, make a summary, ask for the replies
from Ma and write back to the respective devotees. People from different walks
of life in society wrote to Ma about their problems and doubts and prayed for
the solutions.
Q. Were they satisfied with her
answers?
A. In my
opinion, yes. My experiences are that nobody wrote back to her about the same
problems. In this connection, I remember a saying of Ma, ‘This body does not
answer your questions. The question is yours and the answer is yours. This comes
out of this body’s mouth only.”
Q, What is the spiritual
aim of our life?
A. The
spiritual aim of our life, our duty too, is to be perpetually happy. Man’s life
started with a note of unhappiness. Why does a new born baby cry? Because it
feels unhappy to face an unknown world around. It feels insecure. Maybe it wants
back the security it enjoyed in its mother’s womb. This sense of insecurity and
unhappiness prevails all throughout its life.
A. Make
yourself happy first. Your happiness will permeate others. You can give money to
a beggar only if you have it. Only love can make others happy. They say, ‘Love
thy neighbour as thyself.’ First feel the love for
yourself.
Q. Is it not a selfish
attitude?
A. How can you
be ‘selfish’ without knowing the Self? How can you love yourself without knowing
the Self? Look at those rhododendrons (Dhaulchina area is full of blossoming
rhododendron trees. The sight of the trees during February, March and April is
magnificent.) Do you think they are in bloom for you? No, they care not for you
still you feel happy to look at them. One thing should always be remembered that
your happiness should not be at the cost of anybody’s
pain.
Q. What is the difference between spiritual and non
spiritual activity?
A. Apparently
though it may appear so, in fact there is no difference. What is considered to
be a spiritual activity for a particular religion may not be so in the eyes of
other religions. The difference lies in the way we accomplish and look at these.
Q. Can art be considered as spiritual
activity?
A. Yes, of
course it is a spiritual activity. The artist by the way of painting expresses
and establishes the link between the world within and outside him. He does it
for his own pleasure and we enjoy it.
Q. How about the person who does not love himself or
love his own image?
A. People may say that they do not love
their own image or that they do not love themselves. O.K., people may not like
their own image, but they love themselves. When any body does not love something
or somebody at the back of his mind he has some alternatives to love. When Ma left her body, I wanted to
commit suicide because Ma was no more physically with me; it was because I loved
myself that I wanted Ma with me!
A. By loving
the Self. The purpose of life is to know oneself, to enter into oneself.
Generally, one always wants to know more about people one loves and ignores the
very Self. Someone asked Ma, “Ma, do you love us as much as we love you?” “You
love me because I love you”, Ma answered. “You can’t imagine the love I have for
you!” Ma’s love starts where our imagination stops. On some other occasions, Ma
said, “To love Ma means to love oneself.” There is a
simple fact which we always ignore that at no point of time we are without love.
My memories are parts of my very existence. So long as Ma is in my memory I am
never without her.
Q. To you, who is
Ma?
A. One day
during satsang someone asked,”Ma, who are you?” I was quite happy because
it was my question as well; maybe, it was the question of everyone present there
at that time. She answered, “What you think, that I am.” My problem was solved.
She could be Lord Krishna for one, Lord Shiva for another, or for me my mother.
But people kept on asking this question. It is said that this is a normal
question on the devotional path. It is the only question to have been asked of
Ma more than a thousand times. She answered it for the first time when she was
in her late twenties. At that time she was a housewife in the rural and
conservative Bengal. The cousin who was close to her asked it. She answered:
“Purna brahma Narayan” Again she said, “Narayan, Narayani; Mahadev
Mahadevi” People knew these answers, still she was asked again and again. It
was because either they did not believe her or they were
doubting.
Q. How to love Ma?
A. There is no
special technique for loving. For all the activities in life we need to learn
from somewhere and somebody. But loving is the only activity we are born with. I
started my life by loving my mother. At that time the world was quite unknown to
me. My mother was the only object of love. The objective world gradually started
creeping into my life. My love for mother got diluted among other objects of
love. To do something new, we need a teacher, but loving is natural. We think
that Ma is special; this is why we would like to have a special technique. Or
maybe our natural instinct to love has faded away with the cloud of objects with
which we interacted in the past. If we can love this or that thing, then to love
Ma why do I need a special method? Ma said, “Be like a child who knows nothing
but its mother.” Ma loves everyone
in an equal manner, but we always want more. A new born baby does not make any
distinction between objects it interacts with.
Everyone loves
quality and simplicity. There is no particularization of simplicity. Ma is the
very embodiment of simplicity. Our natural simplicity is lost in the
complexities of the world processes. We have lost them or those might have been
buried at the bottom of our consciousness which we cannot see. In Ma, we
recognize them. Let us try to dig those out from the innermost recess of our
hearts and get them back.
In Ma we find
them again. Let us cultivate the feeling which will enable us to say, “Ma, I
cannot do without you.” By doing this, a day may come when I shall be able to
get back my apparently lost Self or the lost love.
Q. Swamiji, do you follow any specific spiritual
practice and if with what goal?”
.A. As for me,
spiritual practices are not for any imaginary goal but to dissolve what covers
the natural purity within me. This was veiling my clear vision of love. My
central point around which everything revolves in my life is my love for Ma.
Q.Do
you need to abandon everything for that?
A. In the words
of Ma, “You need not leave anything, things will leave you.” Things you do not
need anymore will go away automatically. A small child loves his teddy bear. In
the course of time he gives it up, passionately becomes fond of some other toys
and forgets the initial ones. But remember, for the child toys are changed, not
his love for the toys.
Q. How about the world around
you?
A. The world
very much exists for me to be experienced in my love. My experiences are
embedded in my memories and became a part of me. I know I love myself and in
that case I have to love the world.
Q. Why does one become sad?
A. Because he
looses awareness of his uniqueness, at times, he becomes sad. He always looks
for comparing his existence with others’ and finds faults in himself and feels
sad. Uniqueness is beyond all comparisons.
Q. How do you assess Ma’s spiritual
state?
A. Do I need
that? She is my mother. She, to me, is a perfect human being. Ma is not any
theoretical goddess for me. Of course I do not oppose others’ contentions in
this respect. I know that I have so many quirks in my behaviour and activities.
Ma’s perfection helps me see those. I try to rectify my faults by learning to
behave like her in human ways. Besides, to measure anything one needs to have a
unit for it.
Ma was not a
goddess for me although people who say so may be right. She was my mother. She
is a perfect human being; at least one can say she has been someone who did not
make any mistakes in her life. As for her spiritual level, I would not be able
to fathom the depth of it or ascertain its heights because, for certain, I do
not have any standard unit by which to measure it. She is simply my Ma and I
need her more than anything else.
Q. Ma is not a literate person. How would you explain
her wisdom?
A. In the words
of Ma, “Life is the greatest of all books. To one who has entered into the depth
of it, your science, philosophy, dharma and scriptures do not remain unknown.”
Life is a great
book. Ma never studied, but she was full of wisdom. She saw life as it was. Life
gives us answers. Scriptures at times are confusing.
Q. Why people do go on
pilgrimage?
A. Why do we
love going on pilgrimage? Our life in itself is a pilgrimage towards joy. We are
all pilgrims, whether we are believers or not. If I do not believe in God, I
believe at least in something I am in love with. We go to a holy place to see
it, to sense its vibrations and to love it. We have this love inside, but are
unable to feel it.
Q. Do you feel good to share your pain and
pleasure?
A. All our
emotions want expression outside. It is inherent in human nature to share love
and grief with others. He or she can not live alone. Though I am happy in
Dhaulchina all alone, but if some one comes I am happier to share my joy with
him. As for pain, I bear it alone. I don’t want to infect others with my
pain.
Q. Swamiji, do you follow the path of
Bhakti?
A. Yes, I do.
Can you tell me a name from the total history of religions of the world that did
not follow the path of devotion in his spiritual journey? Of course, you can
name the persons who followed, advocated and propounded the path of
discrimination or knowledge. But if I ask you, why did they follow this very
path? The answer will be as simple as that’ because they loved this path.’ The
basic platform is love. May it be love for the goal or love for the path. Those
who follow bhakti, the devotional path, first try to establish a human
relationship, between them and their beloved face or idea of God or ultimate
Reality and then purify and elevate it. I start from the human side because I
know it, and by practice I can sublimate it to the divine level. Once I have
established this relationship between me and my beloved and at the same time I
ask the question “Who are you?” I no longer would be able to taste the essence
of the relationship which was established. By this way, I am distancing my
beloved from me rather than drawing him near me. I am cutting the relationship
before elevating or sublimating it.
Q. What is Sadhana?
A. Different
world teachers, masters, saints and wise ones defined sadhana or
spiritual practice in different ways. But the simplest definition I have found
so far is from Ma’s lips. She said, “swadhan praptir upay holo sadhana”, i.e., ‘the way to get back
your own treasure is called sadhana’. In Sanskrit, swa- means
one’s own and dhan means riches or treasure. So, it can
well be said in the language of Ma that sadhana is to rediscover one’s
own inner riches.
Q. Did Ma advocate any particular or exclusive way of
sadhana?
A. Ma’s way, of
course, if she had any in particular, was all inclusive without any frame or
dogma. One lady spiritual Christian aspirant came and asked Ma for spiritual
guidance. Ma asked her about the spiritual doctrine she followed. The lady
answered that she was a Christian. Ma said, “I am also a Christian, a Muslim,
and a Hindu.” Ma would always ask the aspirants to follow their own path and
their scriptures.
Q. Can you talk about any spiritual practice
prescribed by Ma irrespective of any particular spiritual
doctrine?
A. Here is an
anecdote which I repeat very often. Once, Ma was travelling in a train with one
of her lady companions. There were other co-passengers in the same compartment.
At that time, she was not very well known in the Indian spiritual domain. A few
young men also boarded the same compartment. Ma’s was a magnetic attractive
personality. They wanted to talk to her. When Ma joined in the conversations
they were listening to her with rapt attention. Even not knowing her, they
realized that she was a spiritual person. When they had to alight from the
train, Ma asked, “Would you not give me anything?” (In India, tradition has it
to give something to the vagrant monks). People started to reach for their
purse. She said, “No, no, I just ask you to give some time to God every day.
Just five minutes a day,”
Ma very often
asked people to devote 5, 10 or 15 minutes at a fixed time every day. This is
the best of practices. No other practice is necessary once you get habituated to
it. But in fact, it is very difficult. Even for a hermit this is difficult.
Offering 5 minutes to Ma is offering 5 minutes of oneself. This offering should
be without any expectation of acknowledgement, gain and result. This is not an
investment for the fulfilment of future expectations. Maybe just expect that it
will please God and Ma. You should all the time be alert for
that.
Here is a
story: There was a zamindar (landlord) in Dehra-Dun who was a habitual drinker.
He was fond of hunting tigers. He loved Ma very much. One day, she asked him
whether he would agree to give her five minutes a day for his whole life. He
answered “Ma, you never asked me for anything, so I agree”. One night, he went
out for hunting leopards, he had set a trap and suddenly the beast came. He
raised the rifle targeting the animal and was about to shoot. Suddenly, his look
fell on his wrist watch. It was the very moment he had given away to Ma. The man
dropped his gun, closed his eyes and for five minutes thought of Ma. By the time
he opened his eyes the leopard had gone. One should keep up his commitment like
this.
Q. Are there any rejections in Ma’s
life?
A. Ma never
rejected anything or anybody for she saw God in everything and in
everybody.
Q. How one can ascertain the right spiritual practice
for himself?
A. Finding the
right spiritual practice for oneself is a long endeavour. One should strictly
follow the instructions given by the Guru. It is the Guru who knows the
appropriate path for his disciple.
For long eleven years I had to search for it after the departure of Ma. I
practised different paths and methods on my own. Of course, apparent results
were there but not the satisfaction. Then it dawned in my mind to search for the
specific instruction given by Ma. I started my journey backward down the paths
of my memory
trying to recapture the interactions I had with Ma to pin- point
the specific way she prescribed for me.
Q. Is Ma your
Guru?
A. Do I need a different
definition for Ma? Yes, I learnt a lot from her.
Q. How about your
initiation?
A. Of course, I
am initiated but Ma is not my Guru. The first Mantra I got was from Ma
not from my guru. My mantras of initiation are different from the
mantra I received from Ma. While giving the mantra to me she said,
“This is not your initiation and this body is not your Guru.” She also said,
“This body never asks anyone to take diksha and never refuses when anyone
asks for it”. As for me, I needed a mantra and I got it before the formal
initiation.
Q. Then why had you gone
for diksha?
A. Ma asked me to take
it.
Q. Is not Ma contradicting herself
here?
A. Apparently
it may seem so. In fact I was also shocked when Ma asked me to take
diksha .But afterwards my doubt was clarified. It so happened that one
evening she called me and said,” Your initiation is fixed at dawn tomorrow.” I
was quite shocked to hear her saying so. I never thought of having
diksha. It pained me to think that Ma was going against what she said
previously. I had an emotional upset and started weeping. She asked for the
cause of my pitiable condition I said “Ma, as you said that diksha is
given to one only when he asks for it. As for me, I am quite content with the
mantra I received from your lips and I never wanted diksha from
you. It upset me to see you going against what you said to me in the past.” She
said,” Do you know exactly what is there hidden in the depth of your mind?” Ma
explained to me that I wanted this initiation in my heart of hearts but I did
not know that.
Q. Does any practice go in
vain?
A. Everything
we do bears fruit. Nothing goes in vain. Sometimes results are not up to the
expectations. There is no time frame in spirituality. Spiritual transformations
are slow and deep, apparently unrecognizable.
Q. What should be the mainstay in the path of
devotion?
A. To try to merge the individual will with
the Will of God. There goes a story like this. A ferry boat was carrying a
passenger across a large river. In the middle of the crossing a severe storm
broke out. Big waves were breaking in the boat. The boat was almost filled with
water and about to sink. A sadhu (ascetic) who was on board started pouring more
water into the boat with his water pot. All other passengers were furious and
scared lest the boat sank in the river. However, the storm calmed suddenly, the
boat was saved and reached near the bank. The sadhu now started pouring water
out of the boat. People were astonished to see this peculiar behaviour of his
and asked the reason for this. He said that when the storm came he thought that
it was the will of God to sink the boat and he was adding his will with that of
God. Now the storm disappeared and that too was the will of God and by pouring
water out of the boat he was making it easier for the passengers to get out of
the boat. That should be the attitude of an aspirant.
Q .What was the main
attraction in Ma?
A.
Her
unconditional love for all.
Q. What is meant by
unconditional love?
A. Love without any
expectation of reciprocation.
Q. How can we learn about
unconditional love?
A. Almost all
our actions mental or physical we need to learn from somewhere. The only thing
for which we don’t need a teacher is love. We are born with it. It is within us
all the time. Our desires prompt us for action and for action we need to apply
our intelligence. Only action which needs no intelligence is love. We started
loving even before the development of our intelligence. With time the love that
I was born with became clouded with the encroachment of the objective world in
my mental domain. We lost our childhood along with our innocent love. Mind you,
one might have lost his physical childhood but the impressions of childhood are
still there within him. Let us try to go within and find love
there.
Q. Tell me something about
meditation.
A. Let us
consider first what we mean by meditation. People in general take the Sanskrit
word dhyan as synonymous with meditation. In the scriptures it is said
dhyanah nirvishayah manah i.e. it is the state of objectless mind.
(Nir=no; vishayah=object; manah=mind). In the words of Ma,
achinta hi param dhyan i.e. “thoughtlessness is the ultimate
dhyan”. (achinta= no thoughts; hi=verily;
param=ultimate) She also said, as we mentioned “dhyan kara jay
na, dhyan hoi” i.e. “dhyan occurs it can not be done”.
Besides, in his Yoga Sutra (Aphorisms on Yoga) Patanjali described dhyan
as the penultimate, the seventh of the eight limbs of yoga practices. An
aspirant is supposed to establish himself gradually in the order of yama,
niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyahara and dharana. He should reach the state
of perfection while practicing each of the steps. Then only the state of
dhyan will be there leading to the state of samadhi which is the
culmination of all spiritual practices. Concepts of dhyan and meditation
should not be mixed up.
Now let us
consider what the purpose of meditation is. In short it can be said that
meditation helps in controlling the mind. All the time our senses interact with
the objective world and the impressions thereof are brought in and the mind
ceaselessly roams amongst them. This restlessness of the mind is the cause of
all our unhappiness and feeling of bondage. Interestingly it is in the mind only
that one feels happiness. It is the right mindfulness which is required of us to
feel happy. For that, we need to control the mind. To control it, we need to
know it first. So it can be said that the purpose of meditation is
threefold:
(a) To know the
mind, (b) to shape the mind and (c) to liberate the mind.
Our sense
organs e.g. sight, hearing, smell, speech, taste and touch are constantly
interacting with the objects bringing their impressions to the mind and
recording them on the surface of consciousness, (here consciousness is referred
to objectively.) The mind tirelessly engaged with the sense organs is in
constant movement, as the result of which, we loose the right mindfulness. Some
times either there is superimposition or very close sequence of the impressions,
so our objective consciousness is unable to discern these and the impressions
loose their clarity. If you speedily move a torch of fire in a circular motion,
a ring of fire results. In a movie, still photographs are projected on the
screen in such quick successions that we see moving pictures. These are all
illusions. Because of the limitations of our sense organs in registering the
actuality, illusions are perceived.
By meditative practice we can pinpoint the factual impressions. It has to
be remembered that the mind is restless to get rid of restlessness. The mind is
in constant search of happiness, peace and love. All our activities are directed
towards a single vector called perpetual happiness. Let us not forget that
apparently we have no tools other than the mind to achieve that state. The
objective world being a transient one, is it possible to achieve that state of
permanence from the impermanent world where I am an integral part of it? If yes,
how? What role does the mind play in this context?
Without going
into the complexities of psychology a simple and workable definition of mind may
be useful to answer the above questions. Mind is a bundle of thoughts and an
abstract conception and thoughts are the conscious registration of the
impressions of interactions of the sense organs. These impressions are stored in
different layers of our memory and are always in an active state. Memories
stored interact within themselves giving rise to more impressions which may not
be the results of direct interactions of the sense organs with the outside world
thereby the volume of impressions increases in geometrical progression at
random. It can be said that permutations and combinations of the
interactive reactions of the stored impressions and the mind’s efforts in
ceaseless registrations of these make it hyperactive giving rise to
restlessness. With practice controlled registrations of impressions can bring in
stability of mind. This is the shaping of the mind. Once the mind is shaped
feelings of bondage will disappear resulting in experiences of bliss, peace and
love (which are always there within).
Q. What is the role of Puja (worship) in the path of
devotion?
A. First let us
try to understand what is meant by Puja. Puja is action with love, not mere
rituals. It reminds me of one of the experiences I had with Ma. I was asked by
Ma to perform puja of goddess Kali in our Delhi Ashram Kali temple every
new-moon night for one year. At that time I was quite ignorant of any puja
rituals. Three days before the first puja Ma called me in her room in Vrindaban
ashram and said that a priest from Varanasi would come to teach me the details
about puja. I was being given all possible instructions in detail including
cooking of food for offering to the goddess and items to be
cooked.
Then she
started demonstrating how to peel and cut potatoes, aubergines and other
vegetables. It was the time for Ma’s evening Darshan(Her appearance before the
devotees)and devotees in hundreds were waiting for Ma outside her building. I
thought to myself,” What a waste of time for such an insignificant matter. She
could easily tell me what to do instead of giving demonstrations. I am
intelligent enough to do as she says.” But of course, it was a scene to be seen,
Ma doing this with all attention and meticulous perfection. After finishing this
she said,” Your puja has started right from now. Whatever you do, if it is done
with love for the divine is called puja.” Anything done with love is the key to
perfection.
Q.What is the
relationship between perfection and happiness?
A. Here is a
story: one day a great cello-player was going to perform in a concert. He tuned
his instrument properly. Suddenly
he felt thirsty. There was no water in the room. He went down for a while to the
bar. Then a very young child entered the room and started playing the cello. For
professional musicians it would be terrible music but for the child it was an
immense pleasure. He put all his heart in it and was enjoying the out-of-tune
sound he made out of the instrument. He was quite happy. To a maestro this sound
will bring displeasure whereas to the child it brings happiness. Perfection is
very difficult to generalize. Everything is perfect by its own standards. Perfection
depends on individual outlook. Our life is a wonderful composition. Ma’s life
was the most wonderful composition. There was beauty in her every gesture,
behaviour and word.
Q. What is the meaning of your name Nirgunananda and
who has chosen the name for you?
A. Ni
means no and Gun means attribute or quality. Nirgunananda means the bliss
of attributelessness.As for the selection of the name I heard this story from
Swami Bhaskarananda while he initiated me into Sanyas.Br.Bharatji, Br.Kusumji
and Br. Tapanji were the three senior ascetics of our ashram. After completion
of three years intense and austere spiritual disciplines and practices they were
to be initiated into a special category of ascetics having new names. All of
them wanted Ma’s name as the first part of their new names. Ma’s name was
Nirmala. So it was decided that all the three names should contain Nir as
the first part. Ma herself selected the names Nirmalananda for Tapan,
Nirvanananda for Kusum and Nirgunananda for Bharat. It is a common tradition and
scriptural ordain as well that the first syllable of the original name should
also be the first syllable of the new name. The Pandit who was conducting the
ceremony was very meticulous in the observance of scriptural injunctions. He
raised an objection to the new names. Two of the Brahmacharis categorically
refused to change their names. Ma was in a fix, she wanted to find a compromise.
She asked the pandit whether it would it be alright if one of the names was in
accordance with the scriptures. The pandit agreed to
that. Ma asked Bharatji the future Bhaskarananda whether he would agree to drop
his new prospective name. Since Ma herself was asking, he agreed.
When I wanted
to take sanyas I had selected the name Shambhavananda. It goes well with the
tradition. I was called Shanti Brata, so I chose a name starting with “S”, an
unusual, “modern” one. This refers to an epithet of Shiva, Shambhu [peaceful
being] and his consort Shambhavi. In my daily practice, I worship Shri Yantra
which is associated with Shambhavi. Moreover, there is a reference to the shambhavi mudra in Yoga Darshan
where eyes are open, but attention is directed inwardly. This represents a
practice of the unity between outer and inner world which is significant for me.
Swami Bhaskarananda was the one to give me the sanyas diksha and new
name. At first I was reluctant to take the name but when he told the story I
accepted it. Swamiji could not take the name because of a scriptural
technicality. It was a great honour for me that this very name was selected by
Ma and my diksha acharya offered it to me.
Q. Is grief arising out of the past
inescapable?
A. Grief and
pain are always the things of past. All the religions teach us the ways to escape pain and
be in perpetual happiness. Let me tell one of my experiences from which I try to
learn the way to escape grief.
In Calcutta,
there is a place called Dhapa which had always been used as a refuse disposal
site. Some time ago with a friend I was passing through a new township near
Q. How did you take Marol’s passing
away?
A. Momentarily
his death was a shock to me but I escaped it in my own way. Now he is quite
alive in me and he will live with me.
[Jean-Claude
Marol was a devotee of Main France for many years. He was a writer and published
in Paris three books on Ma’sayings.He died of cancer in October,2001 in
Paris. . He met Nirgunananda
near Paris a few years ago and since that time was communicating regularly with
him]. The first time I met him for fifteen minutes only. . I had heard that
Marol was a writer, a poet, a spiritual and spirited cartoonist, someone with a
genial inspiration. I wanted to meet him. We spoke of our respective views on
Ma. Although he advocated a view on Ma quite different from
that of mine, I listened to him. I did not object to his viewpoint because I
believe that every one is right from his own platform. He did the same when I
expressed my points. I do not know why, but Marol started loving me. He used to
say that I was his brother, his friend, his teacher and son. I too had found
something very attractive in him He gave me much more than I was expecting. The
last time I saw him in
My 96 years old
mother also passed away in July 2001. It was also a momentary shock for me. But
I could manage it in the same way. Whenever I felt their absence I tried to
remember the good times spent with them. Both my mother and Marol are alive in
my memory and I can be with them whenever I like.
What makes us
happy is to have a relationship with ourselves; but all alone, we are not able
to have this relationship with ourselves. We cannot experience this love we have
in ourselves without loving someone else. So, we have relationships and we exist
in others like mirrors. This mirror that Marol was, seemed broken in the world
outside, but the mirror inside is still intact.
Q. How did you feel when Ma
left?
A. It was the
greatest shock in my life when I came to know of Ma’s departure. I was on the
way back from my pilgrimage to Mount Kailash. When I crossed the Chinese border
and entered
Q. How did you reconcile yourself to
this?
A. It took a
long time and now I feel that I love Ma the same way as when she was in her
physical form. If I claim that I love Ma I should love her words as well. She
said,” Remember, whenever and wherever you are the gaze of this body is always
on you. You don’t want to see; what can I do?” This saying of Ma brought to me a
great consolation and conviction that Ma is always with
me.
Q. Marol’s memories make me sad. How can I overcome
this?
A. It is quite
natural to feel sad for the bereaved one. Is there any way to get him back to
life? You can not undo what is inevitable or ordained. Death may be the end of
the physical life of your beloved one, but not your life. Your memories are the
very parts of your life. These will remain alive so long as you live. Your
beloved is dead but not your love for him. Remember, you love someone because
you love to love him. It is your self love which makes you
love others. Bring in the present the sweet memories of the past and be with
them.
Q. What is Marol doing now?
A. Marol’s body
is no more; he can not do any physical action anymore. You can imagine that with
his subtle body he is with Ma and know that with Ma he is happy. Do you love Ma?
Yes, so you love her body, her spirit and her words too. Ma said that she was
ever with us. So, she is with Marol as well.
Q. What is Marol thinking
now?
A. When Marol
was alive you did not know either what he was thinking. Only you knew to the
extent he was expressing his thoughts and that too was not the whole of his
thinking.
Q. How am I able to interact with
Marol?
A. Love in its
true essence does not expect any reciprocation. First of all think why you want
it? It is for sure that you can not reverse his death. But your love for him
wants to relate to him. You have his memories within. With the help of these
memories bring him back to life in your imagination. One often does it in the
course of his day to day life when his beloved is not physically present with
him.
Q .Ma said that we should be like children but we
have grown up. How is it possible?
A.It is true
that by passing through childhood and adolescence we have attained adulthood by
now. But the memories of our childhood innocence are still there within us. Try
to go down memory lane, pick those up and be with those. If you can not
reconvert yourself to a child you can try to feel like a
child.
Q. Emotions bring problems in life. How to deal
with these?
A. All our
emotions are not problematic. Before dealing with these let us try to find the
place of emotions in our life. Emotions are the mental states arising out of the
interactions we had with the objective world. This objective world is not only
the outside one. We have it within us too. Now the question is, can we erase these
emotions which are the root of all our problems? Do we need to erase out the
emotions? The answer to both the questions is a simple “NO.” Now let us examine
a few emotions one by one:-
DESIRE: Desires
are feedback to our lives. Life will stand still without desires and will seem
meaningless. As such desires can not be called the root of unhappiness. Fulfilment of
desire brings us happiness. It is said that first deserve then desire. But most
of the time we desire for something we do not deserve and this is the root cause
of our sorrow. What is needed is to put a limit to our desires. God is the
culmination of all our desires.
ANGER:
Unfulfilled desire is the mother of anger. In other words it can be said that
when our expectation faces any hindrance anger comes. We need an object to be
angry with. Let God be our object of anger and by this way one can have constant
God remembrance.
GREED: There is
a difference between greed and desire. It prompts us to go for more than what we
already have. As such there is nothing wrong in that so long it does not cause
other’s unhappiness. Be greedy for
God’s grace.
EGOISM:
Projecting one’s own “I” in order to establish his very existence before others
is inherent in human nature. But at times we project ourselves in order to prove
our superiority over others. If the man in front of me tries it in the same way as me
the collision of egos begins. Very
often it is advised to get rid of the ego and that would be the end of all
troubles. That could be quite sensible. But could it be practicable? My very
existence depends on my I’ ness or the workable self. How could it be possible
to get rid of the self by the very self? Ego would not invite problems so long I
do not try to prove my superiority before others. Invite a fight with God’s ego
and see the fun.
JEALOUSY: It is
an expression of an inferiority complex or an expression of a mental state of
deprivation. Have-nots are always jealous of the haves. One is never happy with
what he has and become crazy after what the others have. Let us be content with
what we have been gifted with by God.
All these
emotional states are nothing but the result of interactions of our senses with
the objective world and are transient. Those come like a tempest and go away. If
one tries to look at these like a witness he will be less
unhappy.
Q. Are changes of path advisable in spiritual
practice?
A. If one
starts along a right path there arises no question of changing it until the end.
No spiritual path is intrinsically wrong. One thing should always be kept in
mind that a spiritual goal is not bound by any time frame. Once I start
following a path I shall try for my advancement in that direction with
unperturbed attention and sincerity. Life is too short to go for trial and error
spiritual endeavour.
Q. What are the meanings of the words Sadhana and
Tapasya?
A. These are
Sanskrit words. The literal meaning of the word Sadhana is spiritual practice
and that of the word Tapasya is penance or austerity. Ma defined these in her
own way. She said,”Swa dhan praptir upay halo Sadhana “i.e. the way to
get back your own riches or treasure is called Sadhana. For Tapasya she
said,”Tapasya halo tap saha”i.e.to endure or get acclimatised to the heat
of the world is Tapasya. In
Sanskrit language Swa= the self and Dhan= riches or treasure; Tap=heat and Saha= to endure or acclimatise. The greatest
treasure one always craves for is the bliss or peace which is there within him.
He is oblivious of that and seeks for it in the world outside. Sadhana shows the
way to an aspirant to get inside enabling him to recognize his own
treasure.
Generally
people take Tapasya as synonymous
with sufferings in the course of spiritual endeavour. If the ultimate goal of
spirituality is the state of perpetual bliss or happiness and if it is
associated with the memories of sufferings one can not experience pure bliss.
The difference between Tapasya and sufferings should be clearly understood. Let
us take an example:-
Two persons are
engaged in making stone chips by breaking boulders with hammers in the hope of
earning their daily wages at the end of the day. One of them is an ascetic who
wanted to buy a flower garland for his beloved God in the temple. As he had no
money he takes up the work. The other is an ordinary daily wage earner. While
doing work the ascetic is imagining his God’s idol with the garland around his
neck and is enjoying his work whereas the other is thinking of when dusk will
fall, so that his tiresome work will end. Both of them are doing the same work
using same strength and will get the same remuneration. To the ascetic the work
is Tapasya to the other the same work is suffering.
Q. In the Christian world we are taught to suffer for
God. How do you take this view?
A. They must
have their point in that. As I am not a Christian I do not think about
it.
Q. How can one enjoy his
Sadhana?
A. If he takes Sadhana as
play he will enjoy it.
Q Is it possible to
consider Sadhana as a play?
A. Yes, of
course, it is possible. Very often Ma used the expression” Play of Sadhana” (Sadhana ka khel). First of all let us
try to understand what a play is? Play is a sequence of actions in a time frame
which give us pleasure from the beginning to the end. Play and competition are
not the same. When we compete our happiness depends on the end result i.e. Win
or defeat. But when we play in the true spirit win or lose does not matter. If
we take Sadhana as play we can enjoy doing it irrespective of what may come as
the end result i.e. win or defeat.
Q. What do you think about a spiritual
profession?
A. A profession is a way of
livelihood but spirituality is life itself. I do not believe in professionalism
in spirituality.
Q. Does luck play any role in
spirituality?
A. Luck is
another name for ignorance about the results of actions. Chances and accidents
are alias of ignorance.
Q. You said that you never knew Ma before you met
her. But you stayed on with her from the moment you met her. Would you not call
it luck?
I do not think
that I met Ma by chance or by luck. It may be that in the innermost recess of my
heart there was a constant and intense longing to be with someone who is the
incarnation of perfection, purity and love in the human form. I did not know
that.
Q. How do I know what is there inside
me?
A. By self
introspection. We have all the resources within us. Always we try to know
the minds of others but not our own. I see the world outside and fail to know
myself. Here is a story: - Ten friends were travelling together. On the way they
came across a river. There was no boat to ferry them. They swam across and
reached the other bank. The leader asked someone to count heads to confirm that
no one was swept away by the river current. The man started counting and found
there were nine of them only. They were sad to loose one of their companions and
started crying. An ascetic passing by saw them and asked the reason for their
sorrow. The man who was counting said that there were ten members in the team
and after crossing the river the tenth is missing. The ascetic smiled and said,”
Thou art the tenth.” We take into account everything and everybody but do not
count ourselves. I find goodness and fault in another and feel comparative
superiority and inferiority in me, caring very little about self assessment. I
can recognize a thing only when I carry the impression of a similar thing in me.
Overrating oneself is bad but underrating is worse. If you can not find the way
to go within yourself pray to God for that.
Q. How to deal with
fear?
A. Sense of
insecurity is the mother of fear. We are born with it. At birth a baby cries
because it is afraid of the newness around him. It undergoes a change of states.
But gradually it starts coping with the changes and got less afraid. One can
utilise fear in spiritual practice. Fear at times restrain us and saves us from
doing wrong. They say,” Fear thy Lord.” In love and fear there is constant
remembrance of the object of love and fear. Whether you love or fear God He will
be in constant remembrance. It is up to you how you utilise your fear. Love can
neutralise fear. If I try to bear love for one who I am scared of I shall be
less afraid. It is true that the greatest of fears is the fear of death. No one
can escape it. But I am yet to witness my death. I have seen people die
before me, I know about other’s death but surely I would not be there to see my
death. So long as I shall live my death will remain dead to me. Ma said,” Death
must die.”
Fear is always
In the future having its roots in the past. Somebody may say that he is afraid
of the past lest it come again in the future. If you love the present, death
will die. Death is a conception of the future. Yama is
the son of the Sun-god. He is the Lord of Death.. Should I be afraid of God?
Live now and be happy. Death will take its own time to come, when, where and how
I do not know.
Q. Why do we at times fail in our efforts in spite of
being sincere?
A. Most of the
time it is due to over estimation of our capabilities. Success in our efforts
depends on sincerity, capability and methodology. When these
three are complementary to each other only then one can expect the desired
result. If on my
way to a destination a big tree falls and block the narrow path is it not
advisable to find a way round to avoid the blockage rather than to exhaust all
my energy in futile efforts to remove the tree?
Q. Don’t you get bored staying in the same place,
living the same life style for so many years?
A. Boredom and
love are poles apart. It is a transient world. Every thing is changing every
moment. We do not have the eye to notice these changes. Remember our trekking
last night in moon light. On our way back to the Ashram I lost track of the
usual path and found a new one. Each morning comes with a fresh new day. Every
dusk comes with a new night. I never felt bored with the white snow clad peaks
of the Himalayas extending along the Eastern and Northern horizon. I never felt
bored with the greenery around. There is a special bird here. It sings all
through the night. The sound of the bird is a special attraction for me. At
nightfall I eagerly wait for the melancholy sound it makes when there is silence
all around. Neither I have
seen the bird nor do I know its name. I am in love with the sound of it. It has
been my companion for the last sixteen years. It matters little for me to
investigate whether it is the same bird or not. But the sound is the same. When
you are in love with some thing or some one you find some thing new in it/him
every moment.
Q. Is it necessary that body and mind should be in
tune in spiritual practice?
A. Of course,
it is necessary. The physical state acts upon the mind and vice versa. So
long there is identification of the body with the self physical well being is
obligatory in spiritual pursuits.
Q. Why do we mostly feel disturbed during
meditation?
A. A good
question indeed. Let us first see what happens during meditation. Here we are
considering objective meditation. We first select an object, try to focus
attention on it and contemplate on it. The object may be of any type like
visual, sound, smell, taste and touch.
Repeatedly we
try to bring our attention to it. During the wakeful state sense organs are in
continuous interactions with the world outside and the mind is occupied in quick
sequences with these objects. We are left with scattered mindfulness. In the
contemplative state when we select a single sense object by cutting off the
interactions of other sense organs for the moment, the stored memories of the interactions of those sense
organs which also are in active states come to the fore. The world within
replaces the world out side. It is to be remembered that cutting off the
interactions of sense organs does not mean deactivation of the sense organs. For
example, sitting in silence neither makes one deaf nor negates the capability to
hear. Only there is absence of objects of hearing. Take for instance this quartz
table clock in my room. There is no audible sound from it now. But every night I
put this clock in the closet because in the silence of the night the sound of
this same clock seems like drum beats and is most disturbing. Neither the
apparently inaudible sound increases during night nor is there any change in my
sensitivity to sounds. My audio reception is undisturbed because of silence all
around.
.
Q. You said that Ma never hurt people. Can we be like
that?
A. Surely one
can. One hurts others either physically or mentally. Physical assaults are the
outcome of anger and anger has its root in expectations, greed and jealousy. By
proper introspection one can try to minimize these. Mental assault has its root
in the tendency to undermine and belittle others to magnify one’s own self image
or to establish oneself right by proving the other
wrong. Ma used to say that everybody is right from his own standpoint. Take for
instance, a lady; she is a daughter to her mother, a mother to her daughter and
a wife to her husband. Each of the three is right in its own relationship with
this lady but the ways one describes the relationships are not the same. Is
there any point in arguing to establish one relationship by proving the other
wrong?
A. Yes, of
course, but it depends on the outlook of the artist and the purpose for which he
is doing it. Art is the expression of the inner world of the artist. The outer
world an artist interacts with has its impressions within. These impressions
supplemented by the mentality of the artist get form and shape and are
translated into the form of his creations. Besides, an artist when engaged in
work has
unperturbed attention. In other words it can be said he has right
mindfulness for the specific work and this state of mind can easily be called a
meditative state. With practice this very state serves the purpose of shaping the
mind. It is up to the artist to how he utilizes the very shape
of the mind.
Q. How one can distinguish between spiritual and non
spiritual activities?
A. Do we really
need to put a line of demarcation between spiritual and non spiritual
activities? I would say no. What I have learnt and saw during my association
with Ma and it is becoming a conviction is that life in totality is
spiritual. Before World War II it was one Germany. The
Q. How would you define intuition and
thinking?
A. Both
intuition and thinking follow the logic of correlation between cause and effect
but their sub stratums are different. The former emanates from the subconscious
whereas the latter is from the conscious mind.
Q. What is the place of grace in spiritual
endeavour?
A. In Sanskrit
language grace is termed as Kripa. According to some schools, this
Kripa has to be attained through your actions. There is another school
which believes in Kripa without any cause behind it. ( Ahetuki Kripa;
A=no; hetuki=reasoning/Cause) Ma gave us a beautiful definition of
Kripa. She said, ”Kripa means Karo ,pao”
(Kri=Karo=do,pa=pao=obtain/get) She further said,” God’s grace is being incessantly showering on you. If you
keep your vessel upright it will be filled up and if you keep it upside down
kripa
will be empty.” There is no
conditionality in God’s grace. He is gracious to all without any discrimination.
What is needed is to understand that His grace is always there with me. The
greatest feature of His grace is that I am gifted with the ability to think
about grace. Spiritual practices are the means to understand
that.
Q. What role does faith plays in
spirituality?
A. It is the
foremost requirement in spiritual endeavour. Before being faithful to anything
else one must have faith in himself. Ma said, ”Atal biswas” (atal=Firm like a
rock; biswas=Faith) which is required of an aspirant. Our faith is always
vulnerable. We remain faithful to God so long as everything goes well with us.
In our pretentious faithfulness we love to think “Let thy will be done.” But as
soon as something untoward happens we exclaim, ”O God, what have you done!” As
an aspirant I need to have the conviction that everything happens by the will of
God and that too for my good.
Q. I love to be independent and feel freedom
without any bondage even that of spiritual discipline.
A. Before I say
anything let me try to understand what you said right now. What is independence?
To feel, think and act freely. If any one asks you to do something you are free
to do it or not. If he insists you get annoyed or angry. This is no expression
of independence. You are in fact under the spell of anger or annoyance. Behind
the desire for independence lies your constant inner craving for perpetual
happiness. In the pursuit of happiness if you get angry the very purpose of
being independent is in jeopardy. Rationalization/balance of the patterns of
interactions with the world both within and outside minimises the feelings of
unhappiness in life. If you achieve the feeling of happiness at the cost of
somebody else’s unhappiness, this is no happiness.
To bring in
this balance in life is another name for bringing in self-disciplines or self-
restraint in life. This is possible only through practice. At first this may
seem to sort of bind you but when this gets to be your habit the feelings of
bondage will vanish. They say you pick up a thorn to remove a thorn from your
heel, after that you throw both away. Your so called independence is rooted in
your desire for independence. Genuine freedom is the freedom from desire. In
this world you can not live alone. You have to depend on something or somebody.
Ours is the symbiotic life. Symbiosis is not antagonistic to freedom. So long as
our lives are objectively oriented freedom will always be on the far horizon.
The more we try to go near it the more it will recede.
It is well said
that you love freedom. It means that you had the taste of it within you.
Otherwise how can you love it? Try to go within and you will find that it is
there only. Spiritual practice shows us the way to freedom.
For coming to
Dhaulchina, you asked me to organize your trip, and I did it. You could have
come without my help, but it would have been less comfortable. There is another
place in the area called Dhaula-Devi; many people make
this mistake and waste one day before reaching here because they do not care for
any guidance and so face trouble. To tread the path of spirituality you need a
guide to assist you with his experience. Trust, try and accept him. It does not
act upon your independence but makes your journey to independence
easier.
Q. Are restrictions on food obligatory for spiritual
practice?
A. Before
answering the question let us try to answer another question. Why do we take
food? The simple answer is, we eat to live. Life is
action oriented. For any action energy is needed. Food is the source of energy.
In fact food serves three purposes i.e. metabolism, end of hunger and
satisfaction. There is a saying in India that food makes the mind. In other
words it can be said that there is an intimate relationship between food and
mind. If one likes to have control over the mind, control of diet is necessary.
An aspirant is supposed to eat to live not live to eat. Most of the time we eat
more than needed. For an aspirant food intake should be need-based not
want-based.
Q. What about vegetarian and non-vegetarian
food?
A. Food habit
depends on various factors. Variations in geographical location, climatic
condition, availability, work load etc. influence the eating habits of a person.
In
Q. What is Puja?
A. There are
varied and detailed definitions of Puja in our scriptures. The simple definition
of Puja is actions performed with love to please someone. Conventionally Puja
means performing some rituals and make offerings to God along with Mantras in
order to please Him.
Q. What is surrender?
A. Dedicating
everything including the self to the beloved or God unconditionally is called
surrender. It is the highest goal in the path of devotion. In that state there
is complete cessation of individual desires and total dependence on the divine
will. Let me tell you a true story in this connection. In Bengal there was a
great scholar named Shashi Bhusan Sanyal who was contemporary of the then great
saint of
There is
another kind of surrender which is the outcome of fear. Suppose a man with a
revolver attacks me for some reason. To save myself I shall raise my hands and
surrender to him. It is the circumstances not love that compelled me to show the
gesture of surrender to save my life. But I am not sure whether the attacker
would spare me or not. Surrender is a conviction for one’s whole life not for
the convenience in a circumstantial time frame. Let us take another example. It
is very commonly said of a God fearing man that he leaves everything to the will
of God. Maybe he is honest in saying so for the time being. If his young boy is
on his death bed and the doctor has given up hope, the only option left to him
is to surrender and pray to God. If the boy dies immediately he will exclaim,
”O, God what have you done?” This is motivated surrender. True surrender is the
merger of individual will with the will of God without any ulterior
motivation.
Q. How does a Guru help his
disciple?
A. The way a
teacher helps his student or a coach teaches his trainees. A Guru shows the way
to the exposure of the latent potentialities which the disciple carries
within.
Q. Do the relationships which we maintain in the
world help in our spiritual development?
A. Of course
these do help us. All the relations have their essence in love. The world is not
something out side the domain of God. If God is all love and has created the
world it must be out of his love for creation. Nothing bad can come out of God.
Good and bad are from our outlook. An aspirant first establish a relationship
with God which he knows from his experience in the world, irrespective of the
religion he follows and with practice he tries to elevate it to its ultimate
essence. The primary tool given to us is the understanding of worldly
relationships. A famous prayer widely used in India by almost all the spiritual
aspirants goes like:-Twameva mata cha pita twameva
,twameva bandhuscha sakha twameva………( Thou art my mother,
father,brother and friend….) Here all the relationships referred to are worldly
relations we know in our life of worldly
existence but in superficial ways without going deeply into the essence
of the relations. With practice we gradually experience the essential nectar of
the relationship. If we can maintain these as symbiotic rather parasitic which
we often do, worldly relationship can bring us near God. Ma used to say,” Love
your young ones as incarnations of young gods and goddesses.” She further said,”Yatra nari tatra
Gouri,yatra jiva tatra Siva.”(Where there is woman there is the Goddess Gouri
and where there is man there is Lord Siva”) In this context let me tell you a
story. Saint Eknath of Panderpur, Maharastra ,India was a great devotee of Lord Vishnu. The Lord’s name was always
on his lips even when he was engaged in household work. He served his disabled
old father as his beloved lord. One day he was feeding his father constantly
chanting the name of lord Vishnu. The lord appeared before him at the door step
but he continued with serving his father. He offered a brick to the lord and
asked Him to stand on it until he finished with his father’s service. The lord
complied with his request and was pleased to be standing on the brick itself.
The famous idol of Vittalnath in Pandarpur temple is
standing on the brick till to-day as a reminder of the episode. Eknath’s worldly
relation with his father was elevated to such a sublime state that even the
great lord had to appear before him.
Here is another
story:- A yogi had practised austerities and penance
and had acquired some supernormal power. One day while meditating under a tree a
bird defecated on him. The yogi looked up at the bird with anger and the bird
was burnt to ashes. After a proper wash and bath he went out to the village
nearby to beg for his daily food.
He reached a house and knocked at the closed door asking for alms. The
voice of a young lady from inside prayed to him to wait for few moments until
she finished with the task she was presently engaged in. In a few moments he
knocked again and the same request came from inside. The yogi got impatient and
enraged and knocked for the third time when the door was opened. A young lady
with food in her hand stood before the yogi who was looking at her with angry
eyes because of the delay in giving the food. The lady apologized for it but the
yogi’s anger was not lessened. Then the lady told the yogi in a very sweet voice
that she was not the bird and his angry look would not act on her. The
yogi was taken by surprise and thought the lady to be an advanced spiritual
person otherwise how could she know what had happened to the bird. He asked her
about the spiritual practice by dint of which she was able to know what had
happened at a distance. The lady answered that she only served her husband as
god with all her mind speech and actions. Her delay was due to serving food to
her husband. As soon as she finished the service to her husband she came with
the alms for the yogi.
Q. What roles do silence and solitude play in
spiritual practice?
A. Before answering the question let us
first try to define these two terms in a simple and understandable way. Solitude
means the state of being alone. This has two aspects - mental and physical. One
can feel loneliness in a crowded atmosphere and vice versa. Real solitude
can be felt when both mental and physical aspects go hand-in-hand. In other
words real solitude helps one to be with oneself free from objective
disturbances of the world outside and within. The state of being alone should
not be confused with the state of melancholy.
Silence means
absence of noise or refraining from speech. The first one is physical and the
second is the mental aspect of silence. In Sanskrit silence is called
Maun. It is derived from the word Manah. (Mind) So real
Maun is refraining from speech and thinking as well. Physical silence to
some extent helps in silencing the mind. With this primary understanding about
solitude and silence let us now examine their roles in spiritual practice. When
you retire to a solitary place to some extent you can get rid of various sounds
and visual disturbances which you encounter in busy daily life. This is a direct
way to have control over your mind. Physical silence helps you to avoid direct
disturbances through noise. In solitude when you have no one around to speak
to there is automatic restraint in speech. You would agree with me that
most of the time we speak out of habit not out of necessity
and waste a lot of energy this way. This energy could have been preserved and
used in fruitful ways to achieve our goal of life. Once you get used to silence
and have restraint in speech your capacity for self introspection will increase
significantly. Ma always advocated Maun. In our Ashrams all inmates are
suppose to observe silence from 8.45 pm. To 9.00 pm.
You will notice that when we observe silence activities of the mind do not stop
and the inner urge to express yourself exists initially and you resort to sign
language. Besides, you cannot stop people talking to you. As keeping silence
does not deactivate your sense of hearing you may feel disturbed. Solitude is
great help in this respect. My three years observance of Maun during Ma’s
time and sixteen years retreat in solitude at Dhaulchina were a great help in
spiritual practice. Initial compulsive Maun and solitude should become a habit. Then
only you can feel the bliss of these. It is almost impossible to have
control over all your sense organs simultaneously. If one of those is restrained
another will follow its course. Remember, true Maun is called the state
of Samadhi
.
Q. Ma said,” Be like a child who never grows up.” As
such this is impracticable both physiologically and psychologically. Again this
saying of Ma seems to negate the role of intelligence in
spirituality.
A. You raised a
good point. Let me quote another saying of Ma in this connection. She said,
“ You have had enough of the play of intelligence in
life. Victory or defeat, whatever came has happened. Just for once only look at
Him and jump on His lap, you need no thought about anything.” Yes, she
apparently negated intelligence here. Now please tell me what role intelligence
plays in love? Had you ever come across such a term as intelligent-love? Does a
child need to apply intelligence in loving its mother? I do not mean to say that
intelligence has no role in life. It has importance in its own place. I think
spiritual endeavour is not a game to play with intelligence but to play the game
of life intelligently to achieve the ultimate objective.
I agree that it
is impossible to get back my past childhood both physiologically and
psychologically. But I am always carrying the impressions of childhood with me.
I can try to delve into my memory, dig out these impressions, be with them and
feel my childhood back again. By doing this I can taste the nectar of love which
I had lost in the play of intelligence. This is neither impracticable nor
impossible.
Q. Sometimes I feel my heart like a stone. I do not
feel love for anything or anybody.
A. Your heart can never be like a stone
because a stone has no heart to feel. What we call heart is the seat of emotions
in minds not the physiological one within the cage of the ribs. Without going
into the literal meaning of what you said I can well understand the state of
mind you referred to. It is quite natural for a human mind. Now let us analyse
why it happens so. In such a state the mind looses its natural composure due to
the random disturbances from the objective world outside and within. This state
can be the result of frustration. Your expectations are not fulfilled or you are
not capable of ascertaining exactly what you want at that point of time. You
have a scattered mindfulness. Because we are in a relative world our likes and
dislikes are also relative. Behind the aversion to anything there is an inner
craving for liking something else which we can not ascertain at times and so get
bewildered. If your heart be like a stone, it would be the most desirable state
of mind. That is, you have no thoughts and state of thoughtlessness is called
the state of Samadhi, the ultimate goal of all human
endeavours.
Q. How can one develop love for
God?
A. The way is
very simple. First try to establish a relationship with God and nurture this
with all your heart. Gradually you will feel His closeness. Try to make a
permanent seat for Him in your heart.
Q. What are the primary requirements on the path of
devotion?
A. Love for
God, total faith in Him and untiring practice as advised by the Guru are the few
basics on the path of devotion.
Q. Is it possible to love without any
expectations?
A. Yes, of
course it is possible. You are doing it all the time without knowing it. You can
not deny that you love yourself most. At the background of all your objective
love lies your love for the self. What do you expect from you own self? You love
to look at the image in the mirror. Do you expect the image to love you
back?
Q. How can I develop love in
me?
A. There is no
question of developing love. The only thing required of us is to feel that it is
there within us in its full glory. With practice one can acquire and develop a
special faculty in him. We are born with love. The objectivity of the world has
veiled it and for that we are not able to feel it in its fullness. There is no
qualification for or quantification of love although we often do it objectively.
By practice when we will be able to unveil it, love in its full glory will shine
in us.
Why do we love?
Because we know that it is the permanent ambrosia for all our worldly sufferings
and pain. If that be so, can love end in pain? But it is not uncommon to witness
around us the result of love ending in pain. Here the very definition of love is
not tenable. Why is this so?
Because, our understanding of love is at fault. Love manifests in action but is
not the action itself. No action is perpetual. It starts, continues in a time
frame and stops. So is our love when we take it as an action. When we take love
as an object it can not be perpetual. It is a transient world. Everything is
changing in the temporal frame. My object of love this moment does not remain
the same in the next moment. So is my love as long as I take it objectively. The
ultimate result is pain again. These facts prompt us to see love with a
different outlook beyond the conventional understanding. Love is not there in
the object but I need an object to project my love to feel that it is there
within me only.
Q. As you said before there is no qualification of or
quantifying love. What do you mean by saying so?
A. It is a good
question indeed. Quantification is possible in case of a material or an object.
To measure anything you need a unit. Now tell me what is the unit of love by
which you can quantify it? You love to please yourself and your beloved
simultaneously. It is also natural that you are in love with more than one
person. If you say to one person that your love for him is less than that which
you have for the other, would he be pleased to hear that? When you give
something to others there will be quantitative depletion in your stock of
things. But when you give love to others do you have less of it in you? Now you
can judge for yourself whether it is practicable to quantify love or
not.
Let us consider
the qualifying of love. Qualification is always comparative and in degrees. Here
again we face the same difficulties as in the case of quantification.
Q. What is Japa and how does it help in spiritual
practice.
A. In a simple
way Japa can be explained as the repetition of a name or Mantra related to God.
It can be done in three ways e.g. mentally, silently and loudly. Another explanation of
Japa is the constant remembrance of God. Whenever you
remember a
person his image along with his qualities appear in the field of your
consciousness. You feel his closeness and the relationship between you gets
stronger and ultimately you identify yourself with him. It is suggested in the
scriptures that when one practices Japa he should contemplate on the very
meaning of the name or the Mantra.
It is the easiest of all spiritual practices.
Q. What do you
think about motivated spiritual practice?
A. No spiritual
practice goes in vain. You consider prayer as a spiritual practice. Is it not
motivated? In the Gita (Widely known Indian scriptural text) Lord Krishna the
narrator named four classes of devotees - helpless, inquisitive, motivated and
wise. Whatever may be there in your mind you are in constant remembrance of
Him.
Q. What about
idol worship? Is God there in the idol?
A. Is your
beloved there in the photograph you always carry? What about the statue of mother Mary with child Jesus in her arms on every church
alter? Try to get the answers for yourself and your doubts will go away.
If you are a believer you also believe in the omnipresence of God. If God is
everywhere is He not in the statue or idol?
Q. Why is the
same god represented in three ways like Image, Yantra and
Mantra?
A. Image represents the gross form of
god. Yantra is the geometrical representation of god in subtle form and Mantra
represents the subtlest or causal form. An aspirant chooses the form in
accordance with his mental make up. It is easier to start with the gross form
and with practice one can gradually go higher from gross to causal.
Q. Is AUM a
mantra?
A. According to
our scriptures it is the primordial sound and the root cause of the ever
expanding creation. It is also called the Sabda Brahma or the representation of the ultimate
reality in the form of sound. The Vedas call it the first Mantra and all other Mantras are the derivatives of this primary
one.
Q. What is
Maya?
A. Though it is
a very short question the answer is not very simple. Being within the shackles
of Maya it is impossible to feel and understand what Maya is.
However, for intellectual understanding let us see what Ma said about
Maya. She said,” Maya means Mai=Self or ego; Aya=Came.” When ego comes in between me and God,
which clouds my clear vision of Him, it is called Maya. In other words, the veil of primal
ignorance in sentient beings is called Maya.
Q. Can a Guru give me
realisation?
A.
Realisation is not an object which can be handed over from one person to
another. From the Guru one can at best get an academic understanding and that
too objectively. Realisation is subjective. The Guru can help awaken your inner
potentialities so that you can tread the path to your realisation. Guru can
say,” Thou art that.” But it is for you to realize,” I am
that.”
Q. Are you afraid of
Ma?
A.
Why should I be afraid of someone I love? When I feel secured in the love of Ma
fear (that means the sense of insecurity) has no place in me. Fear and love can
not stay together at the same time. When I am afraid of someone at that point of
time I am surely not in love with him.
Q. In many religious
scriptures an aspirant is asked to fear God. How will you explain
this?
A. So long you do not establish yourself
fully in the love of God a sense of fear of God may be of help in your spiritual
practice. It will restrain you from doing wrong.
According to
mythology Lord Krishna had been adopted by Yashoda. He was an unpredictable
child. One day he went with his friends to the bank of the river and started
eating sand. Those who were there could not stop him, so they called his mother.
She came with a stick to beat him and asked him whether he had swallowed sand or
not, but
Love is the key
to our happiness. Love is not an object. An object changes but not love. You
cannot touch it physically but feel its touch in your heart. When you expect
reciprocation in love, it gets diluted. You live with fear of losing love. With
a bitter pill in your mouth you cannot have the taste of
honey.